Weapon Rebalance mod v3.17, All things having to do with equipment! Options

[ShadoWarrior]

Yes, I tested the mod by playing it myself. It was based on my own playtesting (at superhero) that I increased the armor of the WGs. And I kept increasing it I was satisfied that the WGs present a challenge.

You may be able to suppress all the members of the lead WG pack, but unless you have snipers armed with meson guns, lasers, or railguns, you won't be killing them fast enough to be done with them before one or two more packs converge on you. And, as you said, all it takes is for one WG to get a rocket loose to ruin your day. Life gets interesting when you are facing 3-4 of those "orange" WGs at the same time and your primitive guns are almost useless. (Reminds me of Sherman tanks versus Panthers/Tigers.)

MGs are great for pinning them down, but you need weapons that penetrate their armor to finish them off.

Oh, and if you are having fun with the WGs now, just wait until you meet the SGs ...

[Burzmali]

Yes, I tested the mod by playing it myself. It was based on my own playtesting (at superhero) that I increased the armor of the WGs. And I kept increasing it I was satisfied that the WGs present a challenge.

Ah, that explains alot

You may be able to suppress all the members of the lead WG pack, but unless you have snipers armed with meson guns, lasers, or railguns, you won't be killing them fast enough to be done with them before one or two more packs converge on you. And, as you said, all it takes is for one WG to get a rocket loose to ruin your day. Life gets interesting when you are facing 3-4 of those "orange" WGs at the same time and your primitive guns are almost useless. (Reminds me of Sherman tanks versus Panthers/Tigers.)

MGs are great for pinning them down, but you need weapons that penetrate their armor to finish them off.

Oh, and if you are having fun with the WGs now, just wait until you meet the SGs ...

Oddly, I could care less about the WG's explosive weapons. The MGs and plasma weapons are more than enough to disable a squad member with a single salvo.

I'm still wondering how you are supposed to get railguns or meson guns before the WG attack you. Laser weapons are common enough, but lasers have always been the high accuracy, low damage weapon of the X-COM, UFO universe.

Not to be rude, but isn't one of the primary rules of mod making to avoid forcing the player to play with your stuff by nerfing everything else?

[ShadoWarrior]

First, this isn't X-COM. Second, I have not nerfed anything. On the contrary, I've made many weapons more lethal compared to what they used to be. But you are assuming that just because you like a gun you should be able to use it throughout the entire game and still be effective with it. That's a bad assumption.

And I'm not forcing anyone to use "my stuff". MGs are still useful, aren't they? And so are those lasers you've assumed were ineffective. As a matter of fact, they are about 50-60% more effective than conventional AP on heavy WG armors. I even recommend that lasers be used against WGs in the FAQ file I provide with the mod. If you haven't read that file, please do so ASAP.

This begs the question: if you know that this is a "rebalance mod", why do you assume that lasers haven't been tweaked?

Oh, and the only prime rule of modmaking is that players have fun with the mod. That, and for the modmaker to document what they've done so people know what to expect. I think I've fulfilled both requirements. (The second one assumes players will read docs.)

[ishantil]

A few thoughts to share.

I haven't fully tested most of the weapons on the Wargots, as I haven't encountered them yet (still 8 days away). I'm playing on whatever normal mode is. I've got plenty of X-Com experience, and I enjoy both UFO: X games.

But I'm starting to question the inability for rocket designed to punch holes in tank armor not killing a big orange guy. I understand the realism of high-tech armor defeating 5.56mm armor piercing rounds. A meter of reinforced concrete doesn't care if you shoot it with AP ammo either.

Consider the M136 AT4 light anti tank weapon system. Effective maximum range of 300 meters. Muzzle velocity of 285 meters per second. This weapon defeats 400mm of rolled homogeneous armor. For reference, that's 15 inches of hardened steel. This is a one-shot man-portable weapon system designed for the infantryman to realistically defeat a main battle tank's armor. Now granted, taking on a main battle tank with a rocket launcher is chancy, but certainly achievable.

Now granted, anything short of an 84mm rocket or a 40mm grenade launcher will lack the appropriate mass to do enough damage to a large armored target.

I suppose if the Wargots are fielding some sort quantum singularity armor or something like that, I would venture that they could possibly block anti-armor weapons. But if so, a laser certainly isn't going to be a problem for them. A laser weapon depends on delivery of energy to the target and converting it into enough heat to burn a hole through the target. I would figure such advanced armor wouldn't have a problem shedding such heat.

Random thought: I know you have a meson rifle in there, but have you considered antimatter weaponry at all? Perhaps antimatter warheads for the missile launchers? I realize that you need a supercollider to create anti-matter, generally. But with some of the technology we're talking about, I don't see it as completely on the outside. We're doing antimatter research today. Rediscovering previous research is a hell of a lot easier than doing it the first time.

If you project a laser pulse you create a split second air vacuum along the beam path, if you follow up immediately with a positron blast, you'd be able bombard an enemy target's armor with positrons (positively charged electrons) which would cause a matter/antimatter reaction in the target's armor. Some sort of force field would work well to block such a weapon, perhaps some sort of positively charged electromagnetic field would repel the positrons. A proton scattering field or the like. I would guess you already have achieved the "wargot killing beam rifle" with the meson rifle, but I figured I'd share.

Just my two cents. Sorry if this is off-topic.

[ShadoWarrior]

The meson rifle inflicts it's damage inside the target (bypassing armor, which is why I use the "warp" damage type) via particle decays into positrons and gamma radiation.

As for shaped-charge AT rockets, realistically they should kill anything in the game in one shot (that isn't immune to a non-warp attack). The problem is that rockets use the "explosive" damage type, and if I make that damage type effective enough for 66/84mm rockets to do one-shot kills then I'll screw up the game. Why so? Because of 7.62mm explosive ammo. I could, I guess, remove the 7.62mm explosive ammo from the game, but then a LOT of people would complain. Another problem with making the rockets more lethal is that they have a blast radius. Which means that not only would the target directly hit die, but so would anything neaby. The game's design does not allow for one type/amount of damage to be applied on impact, and another type and/or lesser amount of damage to be applied in a blast radius. So, to keep players from wiping out an entire "pack" of WGs with one rocket I have left rockets more or less unmodded. (BTW, shaped-charge attacks have been discussed before in this thread, in regards to special .50cal ammo, and perhaps AT rounds as well.)

[Burzmali]

First, this isn't X-COM.

Please notice the ", UFO". Not trying to pick a fight, but name one X-Com or UFO game where laser's aren't accurate but with low damage potential.

But you are assuming that just because you like a gun you should be able to use it throughout the entire game and still be effective with it. That's a bad assumption.

No, I assumed that the ADVANCED human weapons would be useful considering the fairly large amount of research necessary to acquire them. But, with projectiles near useless against WGs and (I am assuming) SGs, why bother?

And I'm not forcing anyone to use "my stuff". MGs are still useful, aren't they? And so are those lasers you've assumed were ineffective.

So, you say uses laser, meson or railgun against the WGs. Two you created and you expanded the laser family. The damage potential on the pistol, rifle and sniper rifle are too low to handle the WGs. I was averaging <130 with the sniper rifle. So you meant your laser MG, right?

As a matter of fact, they are about 50-60% more effective than conventional AP on heavy WG armors.

I commented on the Laser Sniper Rifle. Unless you did a number on the laser rifle (i.e made it more deadly per shot than the sniper version) the only laser weapon that would be useful is the MG.

This begs the question: if you know that this is a "rebalance mod", why do you assume that lasers haven't been tweaked?

I didn't, I noticed that the cult didn't kill me with one shot with the LSR like they do with the barrett, so I didn't bother with them. The laser machinegun might be useful, but I haven't had the chance to test it.

Oh, and the only prime rule of modmaking is that players have fun with the mod. That, and for the modmaker to document what they've done so people know what to expect. I think I've fulfilled both requirements. (The second one assumes players will read docs.)

I'm not trying to pick a fight. I'm just saying it is a little aggravating to get half way through a game making technology decisions based on a set assumptions that turn out to be completely wrong.

I still managed to beat back the first WG attack, but I was forced to game the AI (level 3 medic with a zombie army...) which I don't particularly enjoy. I'm not saying the mod is bad, or that I dislike it, I was just commenting that the balance seems a little too skewed in favor of the weapons you've added.

[Gorre]

You guys are making me want to take my uber-squad and test different techs with them (against wargots). I think I might do that actually... well, after the wargots arrive in orbit around earth, anyway...

[ishantil]

I just got to the Wargots in my game. I've taken over most of the planet excepting one cultist base in Australia. Frankly, the Wargots were so hard to kill with the weapons I took that I didn't even bother finishing the mission.

I also started playing with Alien Assault 2 to spice things up. I hoping to not have to take it out in order to win the mission.

One of the things that I've noticed is that the newer Wargots are VERY difficult to knock down with even armor piercing ammunition. I myself noticed that the laser weapons don't do much damage overall. Even taking full damage from a laser rifle, I assume it would take a full clip to down a wargot.

Since you don't have access to any of the anti-wargot weapons until after you get plasma weapons from them, one wonders how one is supposed to do enough damage to kill them before they eradicate your force?

Basically, if you don't take any laser weapons with you, you die. Quickly. In order to simulate what I would "normally" take, I comprised my force of the following, each person is level 12-15. This was basically the idea that "I don't actually know what's coming, so I'd take a variety of weapons." Now, since there are no HEAT rockets, I didn't take one. Rocket launchers also don't reach their target nearly fast enough in the game.

1. Commando/Scout. Katana (primary) SPAS12(slugs) with Under barrel Laser (secondary).
2. Cyborg Close Range Support. SPAS12(slugs), attached 40mm Grenade Launcher (XP, HEAT)
3. Medium Range. XM8 (Gyrostabilizer, Recoil Compensator), AP ammunition.
4. Medium Range. XM8 (Gyrostabilizer, Recoil Compensator), AP ammunition.
5. Psionic. Medium Range. XM8 (Gyrostabilizer, Recoil Compensator), AP ammunition.
6. Medic. Long Range. Laser Rifle (XM26 LSS, Slugs).
7. Sniper. Barret 50 with Recoil Compensator.

Now, part of my failure is obviously due to the fact that you start randomly strewn about the station. This allows the sheer amount of Wargots to corner and terminate your squad members.

I would surmise if everyone had a laser rifle or something, this would go much better.

Does the new XM Grenade Launcher with HEAT grenades do well against wargots? Thoughts?

[ShadoWarrior]

I see several problems with your team's mix of gear, from the perspective of what I used successfully when I played through that mission.

First, all of my soldiers carried SPAS15 (slug) as backup weapons for close-quarters combat. The reason is that when any of your soldiers are very close (a few squares away) from a WG, you need a weapon that deals massive damage and can knock the WG down. The SPAS15 is ideal for that. A few bursts will kill most WGs, and until those WGs die they'll be helpless on the ground, and thus of little threat.

Second, 2 of my troops carried M60 MGs armed with AP. Their purpose is to suppress WGs at medium-to-long range by knocking them down. The fewer standing opponents, the less the danger and the longer I have to kill any still standing.

My primary medic was the only one armed with an XM8 as his main weapon. His sole job was to run around and provide a distraction (ie: make himself a target), or medical support, as needed by the other team members.

Last (but most important), I had 4 snipers, all psionics, on that mission, each armed with MSG90s and AP ammo (that was before I added the L115A1 into the game, which is my preferred non-energy sniper weapon). The combat/defense bonuses from the psi troops and their psi gear makes a huge difference to the survival of all your troops. And having 4 snipers means you have the ability to make plenty of fast-kill head shots. Or at the very least, if the head shot doesn't outright kill the WG it'll knock it down. I'm not sure if I had the meson rifle by this point, but if you do, use that instead for your snipers as it's much more effective than anything firing bullets. Offhand, I don't know which is more effective against WGs, the L115A1 or a laser sniper rifle. I'm inclined to think it's the L115A1 because of the sheer amount of damage it dishes out. AP is less effective than laser, but if you do enough AP damage it more than balances out. The L115A1 is definitely superior to a Barret, being lighter and faster to use, and not having the Barret's usage restrictions. But, as I said a bit earlier, the meson gun is the optimal sniper weapon. Switch to it as soon as you can.

The katana is of marginal use at best in conserving ammo when finishing off near-dead WGs. Until you get Duralloy. Duralloy makes the katana a viable weapon again versus WGs ... for your foolishly brave commando.

In case it's not obvious from what I've already said, most of the killing is done by the snipers (unless the enemy is very close, in which case the killing is done by the SPAS15). The MGs are there purely in a support role to even the odds, by knocking down some of the enemies, allowing the snipers more time to do their work. The M60s, and even more so the weaker XM8, are not used to kill the enemy. It takes too long and is inefficient.

I'm pretty sure that I've said all this before in this thread.

[ishantil]

Thanks for your reply, Shado.

I'll take a look at some things this evening, and see if I can get a better handle on getting my soldiers through that mission. You've made some interesting points.

Playing with Alien Assault 2 makes the Wargots difficult because they appear in large numbers. I'm looking forward to the rest of the game when i start getting into the high-tech weaponry (gauss rifles, etc).

Realistically, the XM8 is a fine weapon, but not well-suited for an anti-tank role, which seems basically how you have to treat Wargots.

A shotgun slug burst is interesting. I always liked the SPAS12 better since it has a longer range, but the rapid fire burst option on the -15 is probably worth it. "I like to keep this handy, for close encounters."

Cheers.

[Burzmali]

The rules for engaging the Wargots on Superhuman with the Rebalance and Heroic Assualt Mods.

1. Close range combat = dead team, medium range combat = dead team quick. Engage the Wargots at long range if possible, retreat as they close if possible. A single salvo from any Wargot can knockout/kill/stagger anyone, therefore you have to kill them before they get in range. MGs and Shotguns can suppress and kill a Wargot at close range, but you are taking your chances, beating for a critical hit. Also, the Wargots have no problem launching an explosive at their own feet, it will hurt you worse.

2. The advanced sniper rifle is your best bet. Take 5-7 snipers to a mission if you can, and the map is fairly open.

3. Find a bottleneck. If none is available, find a new team.

I've had the most sucess lining up my snipers as far away from a bottleneck as possible and placing my Machinegunners and shotgun armed soldiers near the bottleneck. As long as the Wargots have to clear the bottleneck before engaging my snipers, life is good.

[ShadoWarrior]

Ishantil, I also find the SPAS15 to be useful versus Cultist cyborgs, which are about as tough as the run-of-the-mill variety WGs.

Once you get gauss weaponry most WGs no longer present much of a threat. The rifle and MG gauss weapons chew up most WGs with only 1 or 2 bursts. Though the meson gun is still preferable to the railgun versus the most heavily armored of the WGs.

[ShadoWarrior]

Burzmali is correct in his assessment of tactics versus WGs. The reason I mentioned the SPAS15 is not so that you use the shotgun offensively. That's suicidal. But in circumstances like that very first Wargot mission where your troops are randomly scattered, there's a very high probability that as much as half of your team will end up within 2-3 squares of a few Wargots. In such a position you do not have the time to run away, and you won't have the APs for more than a single sniper shot per sniper, which may not be enough to put down the all-too-close enemies. So the only viable weapon that can be used to save your ass is the SPAS15. You can get 1-2 bursts off per soldier, and the odds are in your favor that the target will go down, either dead or temporarily incapacitated. In the time it takes that WG to recover you can kill him and/or one of his buddies.

BTW, I forgot to mention that BEFORE starting that first mission make sure that ALL your soldiers have the SPAS15 in their hands, and their longer-range weapons (MGs & sniper rifles) in their packs. Why? Because you don't know who's going to wind up near a WG and whichever troops end up that close won't have time (APs) to waste in switching weapons.

And WGs are indeed fond of launching grenades right at their own feet, if it can hurt you in the process. They don't care about the damage it does to them. And it will hurt you more than them.

[ciceron_arg]

Dear Shadowarrior:

a couple of questions about your mod:

(1) I've seen that some guns (specialy SMG like colt 9mm and mp5) are no longer single hand usable, but double handed like assault guns, my question is: what other guns (apart from desert eagle, uzi, laser pistol) can be used with ambidextrous rangers? New guns, perhaps?

(2) As far as I understand for the comments in the txt with your mod-history, SG are now practically invulnerable to standard fire-guns. So I understand that it will be impossible to battle these guys without researching a whole new branch of technology and guns. Am I correct?

Thanks in advance, and let me tell you that you' had done a great job, I will be installing your mod soon

[Burzmali]

I've used the SPAS15 on the WGs, but it lacks staggering power against the "fully" armored (not Power Armor) WGs. The only real solution to those WGs is to bury them under a pile of lead. Since every bullet has a chance to score a crit, the more bullets the better.

My solution to the initial WG assualt was to RUN. The main chamber has 4 sides and usually at least one of them is fairly empty. Your first objective is to make a break for that section, engaging in combat only if you outnumber the WGs and no fully armored or power armor WGs are present. Since each of the 4 sections have only one entrance, you can set up your snipers to headshot any WG as the approach, and have the rest of your squad throw everything they have at the WGs as the clear the bottleneck.

It is very helpful to "buy" a level 3 medic to continually cast "raise dead" on your snipers. It may sound a little cheap, but remember, the AI can shoot through walls and fire over them, so it evens out in the end.